justin07: van Nistelrooy's goal wasn't offside - there was an Italian player behind the goal line, the one that Buffon blundered into. All the commentators seem to have missed that. If you're behind the line you're considered to still be in play, as far as offside is concerned, yes? Otherwise you could pull an offside trap simply by stepping off the pitch.
van Nistelrooy's goal wasn't offside - there was an Italian player behind the goal line, the one that Buffon blundered into. All the commentators seem to have missed that. If you're behind the line you're considered to still be in play, as far as offside is concerned, yes? Otherwise you could pull an offside trap simply by stepping off the pitch.
When the ball was played back in he was offside as ITV proved, not by much though, only about 2-3 steps.
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Dida01: justin07: van Nistelrooy's goal wasn't offside - there was an Italian player behind the goal line, the one that Buffon blundered into. All the commentators seem to have missed that. If you're behind the line you're considered to still be in play, as far as offside is concerned, yes? Otherwise you could pull an offside trap simply by stepping off the pitch. When the ball was played back in he was offside as ITV proved, not by much though, only about 2-3 steps.
Aaron lad I think you're missing the point. There was a second Italian defender, Panucci, who Buffon slung behind the goal line. The question is whether or not he 'counts' in regards to offsides. ITV commentators simply overlooked him. I have a feeling FIFA will have a statement clearing this up after the game, one way or another.
justin07:The FIFA Law 11 states a player cannot intentionally go across the goal line to put an attacker in an offside position. Panucci didn't do it intentionally - but Buffon DID push/sling him across the line. So maybe that's the intent the ref saw. For me that's a perfectly good goal. It would seem massively unfair if you could put opponents offside just by shoving your defender off the pitch
My bad, ITV did not mention the other player off the field so I wasnt aware of it. On another note I really cant understand why Buffon didnt just clear it for a corner
Well like rich pointed out, he was a bit shaky in the early going. He's made some good saves since then tho, as had VDS. Stunning performance by the Dutch, really.
Dida01: On another note I really cant understand why Buffon didnt just clear it for a corner
On another note I really cant understand why Buffon didnt just clear it for a corner
I've only seen the goal once before rushing off to work, but in my book he punched it with the wrong (right) hand. Had he used his left the ball would have gone either out for a corner or wide of the 18 yard box, instead of back into the mixer.
Hup Holland Hup!!! Well proud of the boys, that is game of the tournament so far and 2 of the best goals you'll see for a while! "Total Football" is back, everyone worked their socks off and to get a result against a team of Italy's quality is no mean feet. Great save from Edwin before the 3rd goal. I'm on cloud nine but still a long way to go, usually Holland start slow. Maybe Van Basten's way of thinking will pay off....here's hoping!
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So they're saying that because Panucci was pushed across the line by Buffon (a teammate, rather than an opponent), that's why he was considered to be still in play and playing van Nistelrooy onside. So really, not much went right for Buffon on that one.
Had this discussion with the one and only Dutchman at my work and I posed the question, if an attacking player not interfering with play is considered not offside, then shouldn't a defender across the line not interfering with play have no bearing on the offside decision either? (i.e. he is lying on the ground not stepping back trying to gain an advantage)
This from the BBC: "Kapl said Van Nistelrooy was played onside by Italy's Christian Panucci, who had been injured seconds earlier and was lying behind the goal when the Dutch striker scored."
Geno, I think the difference in those situations is that the attacking player is not seeking to gain an advantage or join the play, so he is rightly not called offside. But a defender crossing the goal line IS gaining an advantage, by putting an onside player into an offside position. He's having a direct influence on the game. I think that's why they are considered still in play, so they can't gain that advantage. Does that make sense?
Think how easy it would be for a defender on the post, say, at a corner or free kick, to wait until an attacking player came into the six-yard box (but onside), and then just stepped off the pitch. Even if they made a distinction between intentionally or not intentionally leaving the pitch, you could sell it like it was just momentum that carried you across the line.
I hear you Justin but if the player is bundled off the pitch by another player in a challenge, by either his team mates or the opposition, is that intentional?
Again I've only seen the incident once and will take another look tonight, but the BBC article states that he was injured and lying behind the goal, surely that's a disadvantage to his team as they are a man short while the attack continues!
It's certainly an interesting situation that I think will need clarifying by the referees and FIFA.
From BBC Sports Phil McNulty on the 606 Forum:
Ruud van Nistelrooy's opening goal for the Netherlands against Italy provided the first major talking point of Euro 2008.Van Nistelrooy looked in an obvious offside position when he steered a close-range finish past Gianluigi Buffon to put the Dutch on the way to a crucial 3-0 win in Berne.Italy coach Roberto Donadoni was gracious, saying: "I accept it. There's no point crying about it. The referee made a mistake. He's human."Italy's fans, however, were not as forgiving after watching the incident replayed inside the Wankdorf Stadium in Berne.But what looked a desperately poor decision was, in fact, a brilliant piece of officiating, according to the chairman of Austria's refereeing commission Gerhard Kapl.Kapl said Van Nistelrooy was played onside by Italy's Christian Panucci, who had been injured seconds earlier and was lying behind the goal when the Dutch striker scored.He said the goal was "100% correct, without any doubt", quoting article 11.4.1. of the refereeing code that states "an opposing player cannot be offside when one of the last two defenders has left the field of play" - as in the case of Panucci.Kapl said the rule was specifically designed to prevent a team causing a deliberate offside - but does that tell the whole story?Panucci was in no way attempting to gain an advantage or deliberately trying to play the Holland attackers onside.He had actually been knocked behind the goal by a collision with his own goalkeeper Buffon, so where does the law stand on that?It appears to be a grey area of the rules.
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KiwiGKfanatic: It's certainly an interesting situation that I think will need clarifying by the referees and FIFA.
Very true Geno. For me the salient point is that it was Buffon, his teammate, who shoved him out of play. Given that the ref has just a split second to make his decision, if it's a teammate slinging him across the line for no obvious reason, I can understand why he would not want to punish Holland for that. If Panucci had just fallen down on the spot with no help from Buffon, he'd have been in play and van Nistelrooy would have been onside.
For what it's worth, I don't think Panucci was really injured. He's Italian, after all. I don't think he realized it was his own goalkeeper who sent him tumbling, so he was playing it up somewhat - that's my guess.
As far as it being intentional, I think that only applies if the referee decides to caution the player. If it's intentional, he gets booked. If it's not intentional, he doesn't get booked. But he remains 'in play' as far as offside is concerned in either case.
It has certainly opened up a can of worms and it will be interesting to see how FIFA respond to this...one only hopes they do not do what the AFL did recently in implementing the amended interchange policy mid season and without consultation from the 16 teams
It also highlights how much knowledge is required to be a top flight referee and how important it is to have a thorough undertanding of the rules, as well as being able to keep a cool head and lay down the law in high-pressure situations
I think the 3-0 final score has made it slightly less controversial, athough should the Italians go out on goal difference then there might be a problem. I totally agree about the refs tho - if indeed these guys got it right on the spot like that, that's pretty amazing.
Dida01: justin07:The FIFA Law 11 states a player cannot intentionally go across the goal line to put an attacker in an offside position. Panucci didn't do it intentionally - but Buffon DID push/sling him across the line. So maybe that's the intent the ref saw. For me that's a perfectly good goal. It would seem massively unfair if you could put opponents offside just by shoving your defender off the pitch On another note I really cant understand why Buffon didnt just clear it for a corner
For me Buffon used the wrong hand to punch the ball.
By using his right hand for a cross from his left he hook's it back into the middle of the field in a shooting position, which resulted in a goal.
If he used his left hand to punch the ball it would have gone a lot wider, probably into a crossing position (Or even better out for a throw) and he would have been able to recover his ground ready to defend the next ball into his box.
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